Subject: devel-digest V2 #177
From: [email-masked] (devel-digest)
To: [email-masked]

devel-digest          Saturday, May 22 1999          Volume 02 : Number 177

In this issue:

    some differences (may be slightly off-topic)
    Re: setjmp and libpthreads 
    Re: setjmp and libpthreads 
    someday I'll have a working netwinder again
    Re: someday I'll have a working netwinder again
    Re: someday I'll have a working netwinder again 
    Re: some differences (may be slightly off-topic)
    Re: someday I'll have a working netwinder again 
    Re: someday I'll have a working netwinder again
    Re: someday I'll have a working netwinder again
    Re: someday I'll have a working netwinder again 
    Re: someday I'll have a working netwinder again 
    Re: My memory sucks...RH6?
    Re: someday I'll have a working netwinder again
    Re: someday I'll have a working netwinder again 
    Re: someday I'll have a working netwinder again
    Re: someday I'll have a working netwinder again
    Re: someday I'll have a working netwinder again 
    Re: My memory sucks...RH6?
    Re: My memory sucks...RH6?
    Re: some differences (may be slightly off-topic)
    HCC & NetWinder
    Re: HCC & NetWinder

See the end of this digest for information about devel-digest.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 12:53:00 +0730 (SST)
From: [email-masked]
Subject: some differences (may be slightly off-topic)

Hi people

I have noticed the following -

The Netwinder uses the FPEM from Acorn while the Linux kernel 2.2.x
patched with the rmk + np patches for the Brutus use the one from 
Corel.  What are the performance differences ?

I also observe the following when I run the java run-time envs on 
both the machines.  The brutus board takes about 10 minutes to display
the first start-up window of any java application while the same
code runs almost instantaneously on the netwinder.  Could this be
because of the differences in the FPEMs ? I havent gotten around
to switching them yet.  So, any pointers would be appreciated. 

- -amlan.

- -- 
Amlan Saha					  [email-masked]
Mobile Computing and Protocols Group  
Center for Wireless Comms, 20 Science Park Rd, Singapore 117674
+65.8709.265 (Tel) +65.779.5441 (Fax)   **I speak only for myself**

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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 12:52:49 -0400 (EDT)
From: Nicolas Pitre <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: setjmp and libpthreads 

On Thu, 20 May 1999, Philip Blundell wrote:

> Oops, I forgot to actually answer your main question.
> 
> >Sorry if I'm regurgitating old subjects, but I am considering using the
> >glibc-2.1.1 version of libpthreads and need to know if it is stable on 
> >the StrongArm platforms.  Anyone using this with success?
> 
> It seems stable enough in my limited experience.  I run nscd all the time on 
> my netwinder and haven't noticed any problems.  On the few occasions I've 
> seriously used other multithreaded programs it's seemed OK too.

Our application makes heavy use of threads.  We currently use glibc-2.1
and everyting seems pretty stable.  I don't know if there is significant
threads changes between glibc 2.1 and 2.1.1 though.

Nicolas Pitre, B. ing.
[email-masked]

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Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 18:44:17 +0100
From: Philip Blundell <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: setjmp and libpthreads 

Nicolas Pitre wrote:

>I don't know if there is significant threads changes between glibc 2.1 
>and 2.1.1 though.

No.  2.1.1 (when it's released) should introduce no significant behaviour 
changes except to fix bugs.

p.

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Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 13:35:47 -0500
From: "Chris Garrigues" <[email-masked]>
Subject: someday I'll have a working netwinder again

- --==_Exmh_-1414243868P
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Okay, after weeks of other work, I'm back to trying to revive my netwinder.  It 
now boots diskless, but I'm trying to get it to boot standalone again.

Because I'm not found of the way the disk was partitioned originally, I've 
tried to change the partitioning.  This may be screwing me.

While running diskless, I created separate partitions for /, /usr, /var, and 
/export and mounted them on /mnt, /mnt/usr, /mnt/var, and /mnt/export.  I 
created a link from /mnt/home to export/home.  I then cd'd to / and did this 
command:

tar cvfl - .|(cd /mnt;tar xvfp -)

Once that ran successfully, I edited /mnt/etc/fstab to reflect where 
everything is really supposed to be and rebooted off the disk.

Here's where I get to:

Calibrating delay loop.. ok - 262.14 BogoMIPS
Memory: 63608/65536k available (680 kernel code, 48k reserved, 1200k data)
Swansea University Computer Society TCP/IP for NET3.034
IP Protocols: ICMP, UDP, TCP
Linux version 2.0.35, #1 Fri Dec 11 15:11:42 EST 1998
NetWinder Floating Point Emulator V0.94 (c) 1998 Corel Computer
hda: TOSHIBA MK2104MAV, 2067MB w/0kB Cache, CHS=4200/16/63, DMA
eth0: NE2000+ found at 0x300, using IRQ 24, (32 bit).
sh: id: command not found
sh: id: command not found
sh: id: command not found
[: too many arguments
sh: id: command not found
sh: /bin/hostname: No such file or directory
[root@(none) /]#

any command that's not part of the shell gives me a command not found error.  
I can use shell builtin's such as 'echo', and from that I can see that I have 
my root partition, but not my /usr or /var.

Is it not possible to put /usr and /var in a different partition or do I have 
something else wrong?

Chris

- -- 
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Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 14:46:04 -0400
From: "Andrew E. Mileski" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: someday I'll have a working netwinder again

Chris Garrigues wrote:
> Okay, after weeks of other work, I'm back to trying to revive my netwinder.  It
> now boots diskless, but I'm trying to get it to boot standalone again.
> 
> Because I'm not found of the way the disk was partitioned originally, I've
> tried to change the partitioning.  This may be screwing me.

It is :(

> While running diskless, I created separate partitions for /, /usr, /var, and
> /export and mounted them on /mnt, /mnt/usr, /mnt/var, and /mnt/export.

You can't do that.. Sorry.

DM builds 1 through 13 have some /bin and /sbin executables linked against
libraries in /usr/lib

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Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 13:55:23 -0500
From: "Chris Garrigues" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: someday I'll have a working netwinder again 

- --==_Exmh_-1412769026P
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

> From:  "Andrew E. Mileski" <[email-masked]>
> Date:  Fri, 21 May 1999 14:46:04 -0400
>
> Chris Garrigues wrote:
> > Okay, after weeks of other work, I'm back to trying to revive my netwinde
> r.  It
> > now boots diskless, but I'm trying to get it to boot standalone again.
> > 
> > Because I'm not found of the way the disk was partitioned originally, I'v
> e
> > tried to change the partitioning.  This may be screwing me.
> 
> It is :(
> 
> > While running diskless, I created separate partitions for /, /usr, /var, 
> and
> > /export and mounted them on /mnt, /mnt/usr, /mnt/var, and /mnt/export.
> 
> You can't do that.. Sorry.
> 
> DM builds 1 through 13 have some /bin and /sbin executables linked against
> libraries in /usr/lib

That certainly explains that.  Thanks.  I've just repartitioned and I'm doing 
it again. (BTW, shame on whoever for dynamically linking executables in /bin
and /sbin.)

Chris

- -- 
Chris Garrigues                 virCIO
+1 512 432 4046                 4314 Avenue C                    O-
http://www.DeepEddy.Com/~cwg/   Austin, TX  78751-3709
                                +1 512 374 0500

  My email address is an experiment in SPAM elimination.  For an
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    Nobody ever got fired for buying Microsoft,
      but they could get fired for relying on Microsoft.

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Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 20:11:05 +0100 (BST)
From: Russell King <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: some differences (may be slightly off-topic)

[email-masked] writes:
> The Netwinder uses the FPEM from Acorn while the Linux kernel 2.2.x
> patched with the rmk + np patches for the Brutus use the one from 
> Corel.  What are the performance differences ?

Indeed there are.  The Acorn one is substantially faster than NWFPE,
since the Acorn FPE is hand and globally register optimised, whereas
NWFPE is just straight C with a bit of assembler.

Certainly 'esd' is unusable with NWFPE, but is perfectly usable with
the Acorn FPE.
   _____
  |_____| ------------------------------------------------- ---+---+-
  |   |         Russell King        [email-masked]      --- ---
  | | | |   http://www.arm.linux.org.uk/~rmk/aboutme.html    /  /  |
  | +-+-+                                                     --- -+-
  /   |               THE developer of ARM Linux              |+| /|\
 /  | | |                                                     ---  |
    +-+-+ -------------------------------------------------  /\\\  |
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Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 14:24:33 -0500
From: "Chris Garrigues" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: someday I'll have a working netwinder again 

- --==_Exmh_-1407614166P
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Okay, I'm on to the next point at which I probably shot myself in the foot.

I'm now partitioned much like the box was shipped with three partitions:  /, 
swap, and /home.

The problem is that / never gets remounted r/w.

Any idea why?

Chris
- -- 
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+1 512 432 4046                 4314 Avenue C                    O-
http://www.DeepEddy.Com/~cwg/   Austin, TX  78751-3709
                                +1 512 374 0500

  My email address is an experiment in SPAM elimination.  For an
  explanation of what we're doing, see http://www.DeepEddy.Com/tms.html 

    Nobody ever got fired for buying Microsoft,
      but they could get fired for relying on Microsoft.

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Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 15:27:48 -0400
From: "Andrew E. Mileski" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: someday I'll have a working netwinder again

Chris Garrigues wrote:
> That certainly explains that.  Thanks.  I've just repartitioned and I'm doing
> it again. (BTW, shame on whoever for dynamically linking executables in /bin
> and /sbin.)

Obviously you've never built an OS for a new architecture from scratch :p

We were quite happy when things were linked in a somewhat standardized
fashion, and were no longer linked against /usr/local/lib and other places :)
DM builds 1 through 13 have this legacy code in them.

DM Builds 14 and up should be okay to partition more freely.

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Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 15:36:08 -0400
From: "Andrew E. Mileski" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: someday I'll have a working netwinder again

Chris Garrigues wrote:
> Okay, I'm on to the next point at which I probably shot myself in the foot.
> 
> I'm now partitioned much like the box was shipped with three partitions:  /,
> swap, and /home.
> 
> The problem is that / never gets remounted r/w.
> 
> Any idea why?

Errr...ummm...check:
   firmware    Should be current, and then do a load-defaults and save-all
   /etc/fstab  Should be correct
   /etc/mtab   Should be null before a boot
   /home       Should exist
   /proc       Should exist
I'll need more info if it's not one of these.

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Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 14:39:26 -0500
From: "Chris Garrigues" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: someday I'll have a working netwinder again 

- --==_Exmh_-1406501134P
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

> From:  "Andrew E. Mileski" <[email-masked]>
> Date:  Fri, 21 May 1999 15:27:48 -0400
>
> Obviously you've never built an OS for a new architecture from scratch :p

No, and I don't envy you for having done so, although I'm sure it was a 
terrific learning experience.

> We were quite happy when things were linked in a somewhat standardized
> fashion, and were no longer linked against /usr/local/lib and other places 
> :)
> DM builds 1 through 13 have this legacy code in them.
> 
> DM Builds 14 and up should be okay to partition more freely.

hmmmm...I wonder if I should simply grab a newer build.  Where would I find 
such a beast?  The only pointer I have is to 

	ftp://ftp.netwinder.org/pub/ccc/images

which only has dm-2.1-12

Chris

- -- 
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                                +1 512 374 0500

  My email address is an experiment in SPAM elimination.  For an
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Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 14:52:27 -0500
From: "Chris Garrigues" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: someday I'll have a working netwinder again 

- --==_Exmh_-1405529842P
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

> From:  "Andrew E. Mileski" <[email-masked]>
> Date:  Fri, 21 May 1999 15:36:08 -0400
>
> Errr...ummm...check:
>    firmware    Should be current, and then do a load-defaults and save-all
>    /etc/fstab  Should be correct
>    /etc/mtab   Should be null before a boot
>    /home       Should exist
>    /proc       Should exist
> I'll need more info if it's not one of these.

It was the /etc/mtab.  Since I cloned the entire filesystem off my netbooted 
filesystem, it had that junk in it.  Clearing it out solved the problem.  Once 
again I have a bootable netwinder.  Thanks for the help.

Now I have to figure out what to do with it.  Originally I was using it as a 
co-located box, but I've since realized that it isn't quite stable enough for 
that, plus it has all this neat hardware in it, so I'm thinking that I'll put 
my LCD monitor on it and put it in the livingroom to impress all my non-geek 
friends with how cool it looks.

Chris

- -- 
Chris Garrigues                 virCIO
+1 512 432 4046                 4314 Avenue C                    O-
http://www.DeepEddy.Com/~cwg/   Austin, TX  78751-3709
                                +1 512 374 0500

  My email address is an experiment in SPAM elimination.  For an
  explanation of what we're doing, see http://www.DeepEddy.Com/tms.html 

    Nobody ever got fired for buying Microsoft,
      but they could get fired for relying on Microsoft.

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Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 15:55:18 -0400
From: "Andrew E. Mileski" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: My memory sucks...RH6?

"Ivan R. Judson" wrote:
> Did one of the netwinder guys mention something about a new disk image based on
> RH6.0?
> 
> If not, I'm clearly dreaming/wishing they did :-)

Build 14 was mostly based on rawhide, like RH 6.0 was, but also includes
a lot more.

The distributions are related, close cousins, but that's about as
of much comparison that can be made.

I can make a RPM list for build 14 available if you want to decide
for yourself.

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Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 16:04:16 -0400
From: "Andrew E. Mileski" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: someday I'll have a working netwinder again

> > DM Builds 14 and up should be okay to partition more freely.
> 
> hmmmm...I wonder if I should simply grab a newer build.  Where would I find
> such a beast?  The only pointer I have is to
> 
>         ftp://ftp.netwinder.org/pub/ccc/images
> 
> which only has dm-2.1-12

You are welcome to try anything you may find in my home directory,
but Rebel.com doesn't support any of it.  Proceed at your own risk.
[Which you are already doing...]

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Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 15:23:46 -0500
From: "Chris Garrigues" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: someday I'll have a working netwinder again 

- --==_Exmh_-1400219068P
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

> From:  "Andrew E. Mileski" <[email-masked]>
> Date:  Fri, 21 May 1999 16:04:16 -0400
>
> > > DM Builds 14 and up should be okay to partition more freely.
> > 
> > hmmmm...I wonder if I should simply grab a newer build.  Where would I fi
> nd
> > such a beast?  The only pointer I have is to
> > 
> >         ftp://ftp.netwinder.org/pub/ccc/images
> > 
> > which only has dm-2.1-12
> 
> You are welcome to try anything you may find in my home directory,
> but Rebel.com doesn't support any of it.  Proceed at your own risk.
> [Which you are already doing...]

I can't possibly do worse, and who knows, maybe I can stumble over bugs that 
you'd like to know about.  I hate finding bugs and being told that it's 
already known.  New bugs are so much more fun!  Anyway, I'm now choking my ISDN
line to download dm-3.0-14beta...

BTW, I never did manage to netboot over the 10/100 port, but it works fine 
from a diskbooted image.  This is with firmware 2.0.4.

Chris

- -- 
Chris Garrigues                 virCIO
+1 512 432 4046                 4314 Avenue C                    O-
http://www.DeepEddy.Com/~cwg/   Austin, TX  78751-3709
                                +1 512 374 0500

  My email address is an experiment in SPAM elimination.  For an
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Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 16:42:26 -0400
From: "Andrew E. Mileski" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: someday I'll have a working netwinder again

Chris Garrigues wrote:
> Now I have to figure out what to do with it.  Originally I was using it as a
> co-located box, but I've since realized that it isn't quite stable enough for
> that, plus it has all this neat hardware in it, so I'm thinking that I'll put
> my LCD monitor on it and put it in the livingroom to impress all my non-geek
> friends with how cool it looks.

It's much more stable now, and getting more so.

I'm using one with DM build 13 as a firewall, and after 53 days of uptime
it's still going strong despite several nethack attempts.  It's running
RC5-64 crack code, so the CPU usage has been at least 1.0 for the entire
time.  Not to mention that I use this same box to code on, and to
automatically leech music off the net (more than I can store or listen to).

This surpasses the Win95/Win98 47.7 day maximum uptime bug (there is a known
DLL bug that causes them to crash at this point), though few Win boxes make
it past a day in regular use (my Winbox will die after 4-6 hours and doing
nothing).

Anyways, if you do find any instabilities in the NetWinder, PLEASE report
them so they can be addressed.  Thanks.

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Andrew E. Mileski - Software Engineer [OS Team Leader]
Rebel.com  http://www.rebel.com/
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Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 16:51:39 -0400
From: "Andrew E. Mileski" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: someday I'll have a working netwinder again

Chris Garrigues wrote:
> BTW, I never did manage to netboot over the 10/100 port, but it works fine
> from a diskbooted image.  This is with firmware 2.0.4.

The official word is that it isn't supported.  Sorry.

Ralph and I have big dreams for a firmware overhaul, but at this point
that's all we have time for.

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Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 15:58:39 -0500
From: "Chris Garrigues" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: someday I'll have a working netwinder again 

- --==_Exmh_-1397614036P
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

> From:  "Andrew E. Mileski" <[email-masked]>
> Date:  Fri, 21 May 1999 16:42:26 -0400
>
> It's much more stable now, and getting more so.
> 
> I'm using one with DM build 13 as a firewall, and after 53 days of uptime
> it's still going strong despite several nethack attempts.  It's running
> RC5-64 crack code, so the CPU usage has been at least 1.0 for the entire
> time.  Not to mention that I use this same box to code on, and to
> automatically leech music off the net (more than I can store or listen to).

My instabilities were all triggered by ezmlm/qmail running a mailing list.  
Unfortunately, it tended to freeze the machine and since it was co-located, it 
was hard to diagnose.  Most of my problems were self-inflicted by having the 
system so far away.

> This surpasses the Win95/Win98 47.7 day maximum uptime bug (there is a know
> n
> DLL bug that causes them to crash at this point), though few Win boxes make
> it past a day in regular use (my Winbox will die after 4-6 hours and doing
> nothing).

Just a few months ago, a bug was fixed in mklinux which caused it to die after 
28 days on x100 models.  It took a while to fix because of the rather slow 
debug cycle.  My own mklinux box (a 7200 that I'm typing to right now) has been
quite stable although it wasn't when I first started using mklinux.

> Anyways, if you do find any instabilities in the NetWinder, PLEASE report
> them so they can be addressed.  Thanks.

Absolutely.  Since the box won't be an hour away from me any more, I'll be able 
to give it the attention it deserves.

Chris

- -- 
Chris Garrigues                 virCIO
+1 512 432 4046                 4314 Avenue C                    O-
http://www.DeepEddy.Com/~cwg/   Austin, TX  78751-3709
                                +1 512 374 0500

  My email address is an experiment in SPAM elimination.  For an
  explanation of what we're doing, see http://www.DeepEddy.Com/tms.html 

    Nobody ever got fired for buying Microsoft,
      but they could get fired for relying on Microsoft.

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Date: Sat, 22 May 1999 07:06:10 +1000
From: Anthony David <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: My memory sucks...RH6?

> Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 15:55:18 -0400
> From: "Andrew E. Mileski" <[email-masked]>
> Organization: Hardware Canada Computing
> X-Accept-Language: en
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> Sender: [email-masked]
> Reply-To: [email-masked]
> 
> "Ivan R. Judson" wrote:
> > Did one of the netwinder guys mention something about a new disk image based on
> > RH6.0?
> > 
> > If not, I'm clearly dreaming/wishing they did :-)
> 
> Build 14 was mostly based on rawhide, like RH 6.0 was, but also includes
> a lot more.
> 
> The distributions are related, close cousins, but that's about as
> of much comparison that can be made.
> 
> I can make a RPM list for build 14 available if you want to decide
> for yourself.

As long as dm-14 (and future images) still leaves *some* room on the disk
for us 820MB disk owners.

Regards

- -- 
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Anthony David & Associates  | Free Truman
http://adavid.netinfo.net/  | Redeem Londo
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Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 17:29:51 -0400
From: "Andrew E. Mileski" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: My memory sucks...RH6?

> > Build 14 was mostly based on rawhide, like RH 6.0 was, but also includes
> > a lot more.
> 
> As long as dm-14 (and future images) still leaves *some* room on the disk
> for us 820MB disk owners.

Sorry, no :(  The 2 GB maximum was imposed quite a while back, as the
500 MB, 800 MB, and 1 GB drives were discontinued.  The build 14 image
is a hair under 1 GB uncompressed IIRC.

It will be possible to make a minimum system that is about 90 MB or so
uncompressed, then you could load on whatever you want.  Nobody really
needs HOWTOs in 8 different languages, or emacs, after all :D

I wrote a utility, ftptar (for lack of a better name), that allows us to
ftp and un-tar on the fly (no download space required).  This helps us
stuff drives to the limit, and faster too (the S/RPM is in my home
directory).

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Rebel.com  http://www.rebel.com/
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Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 23:03:25 +0100 (GMT)
From: Alex Holden <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: some differences (may be slightly off-topic)

On Fri, 21 May 1999, Russell King wrote:
> Certainly 'esd' is unusable with NWFPE, but is perfectly usable with
> the Acorn FPE.

I found exactly the opposite behaviour. Esound was unusable with the Acorn
FPE but fine with the NWFPE. NWFPE seems to be noticably faster for most
things (also, a benchmark I tried managed nearly a MFlop with NWFPE, but
it was too slow to register with the Acorn FPE). I was told this was due
to the Acorn FPE doing all the calculations internally at the highest
accuracy, where the NWFPE only uses as much accuracy as was needed for any
given calculation...

- --------------- Linux- the choice of a GNU generation. --------------
: Alex Holden (M1CJD)- Caver, Programmer, Land Rover nut, Radio Ham :
- -------------------- http://www.linuxhacker.org/ --------------------

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Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 17:11:29 -0600 (MDT)
From: Ash <[email-masked]>
Subject: HCC & NetWinder

I'm sure this has been covered before, but I've been away and not paying
attention to the lists.. what is the deal with HCC and the whole NetWinder
project? It looks like they're selling things on their website (rebel.com)
that are called NetWinders but aren't our favourite StrongARM-based
computers! Is the NetWinder project being cancelled in favor of silly
small intel machines? Ack!

ash

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Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 19:25:56 -0400
From: "Andrew E. Mileski" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: HCC & NetWinder

Ash wrote:
> I'm sure this has been covered before, but I've been away and not paying
> attention to the lists.. what is the deal with HCC and the whole NetWinder
> project? It looks like they're selling things on their website (rebel.com)
> that are called NetWinders but aren't our favourite StrongARM-based
> computers! Is the NetWinder project being cancelled in favor of silly
> small intel machines? Ack!

Sure looks like we're selling them to me...
  http://www.rebel.com/products/servertech/serv-net.htm
probably other areas too, but that's the first one I stumbled on.

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Rebel.com  http://www.rebel.com/
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End of devel-digest V2 #177
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